Curse

BlackSephir · Jul 27, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

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Originally Posted by Parson Brown

Fire still does good damage, and burning ignores armor

[skill]searing flames[/skill]

Fire does shitty damage compared to physical +damage skills. And degen is bad, so very, very bad in pve.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

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Originally Posted by Tyla

PS: SS sucks, Foul Feast > Blind / Weakness and targetswitching / enchant removal > blocks.

Like I said, you or your team can bring skills to negate physical shutdown like blind, weakness, blocking, or anti-melee hexes. Casters, on the other hand, have fewer shutdowns in PvE.

Use a necro and bring 3 overpowered PvE skills from this set: [[Cry of Pain], [[Necrosis], [[Finish Him!], [[Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support], or [[You Move like a Dwarf!]

Bring aoe hexes like [[Shadow of Fear] and aoe conditions like [[Enfeebling Blood] for physical shutdown and use either [[Discord] or [[Assassin's Promise] as your elite. Spammable armor ignoring damage skills rule in HM.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Like I said, you or your team can bring skills to negate physical shutdown like blind, weakness, blocking, or anti-melee hexes. Casters, on the other hand, have fewer shutdowns in PvE.

You mean like you need to do for _EVERY_OTHER_TYPE_ of shutdown in the game?!

Oh, and targetswitching doesn't require a skill to be used, it requires a thing called "Common Sense".

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

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Originally Posted by Tyla

You mean like you need to do for _EVERY_OTHER_TYPE_ of shutdown in the game?!

Oh, and targetswitching doesn't require a skill to be used, it requires a thing called "Common Sense".

And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.

Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the BEST professions for HM in general? Are they better than necros in HM?

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.

Are you sure you're not just too lazy to Tab + Space?

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Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the best damage dealing professions for HM in general?

So I suppose you haven't seen the build that my guild uses for FoW?

Armour ignoring +damage for the win. Oh, and last time I checked easily applyable deep wound, endless buffing, almost instantaniously charged SY or Brawling Headbutt, consistent damage that can be buffed to absurd levels wins.

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Are they better than necros in HM?

Wut? Necros are a shutdown / support class, not a damage class. You're comparing oranges and apples.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Are you sure you're not just too lazy to Tab + Space?

Target switching is just a mitigation for a weakness, physical characters have against blocking. Not an advantage, especially when we are comparing what the BEST HM profession is. Hopefully that monster doesn't self heal or regen after you have switched target.

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Wut? Necros are a shutdown / support class, not a damage class. You're comparing oranges and apples.

I suppose you didn't read the spell description for [[Discord]. Necros can be both.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I suppose you didn't read the spell description for [[Discord]. Necros can be both.

They have a damage skill. What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class? I suppose Mesmers are a damage class because Cry of Pain exists too? Oh wait, no.

Oh, and have you tried buffing the shit out of physicals with AoE damage and so on and comparing it then? No comparrison.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

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Originally Posted by Tyla

They have a damage skill. What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class? I suppose Mesmers are a damage class because Cry of Pain exists too? Oh wait, no.

Mesmers CAN also be built as an effective damage class nowadays, if you know how to use them well. Look up the AP Painful Promise mesmer build. Similarly, necros can also be built as an effective damage class if you know how.

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Oh, and have you tried buffing the shit out of physicals with AoE damage and so on and comparing it then? No comparrison.

Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Mesmers CAN also be built as a damage class nowadays, if you know how to use them well. Look up the AP Painful Promise mesmer build. Similarly, necros can also be built as a damage class.

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Originally Posted by Me

What does that have to do with it being a shutdown / support class?

I mean primarily.

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Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.

I guess it's roughly 37 DPS then. A Dragon Slash Warrior with an IAS active would out-DPS that by the way. No buffs needed.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I mean primarily.

Necros and mesmers are flexible classes that can be used as an effective support or damage characters, so I disagree with your biased stereotyping, with the sole purpose of disregarding them as possible candidates, for this thread.

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I guess it's roughly 37 DPS then. A Dragon Slash Warrior with an IAS active would out-DPS that by the way. No buffs needed.

There is about a half second pause before your adrenaline recharges.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Necros and mesmers are flexible classes and can be used as an effective support or damage characters so I disagree with your stereotyping.

Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.

What does it matter if you personally brand them as X or Y in this thread? Are you expecting us to disregard them as "the best HM profession", simply because you BRANDED them this way? Are you saying Discord sucks because they are a damage skill for necros?

My necro and mesmers are is still performing very well in HM as a damage character, whether you brand them one way or not. It has no bearing at all, on their performance in HM, damage or otherwise.

Necros and mesmers have alot more damage skills than you give them credit for.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What does matter if you personally brand them as X or Y in this thread? Are you expecting us to drop them simply because you BRANDED them this way?

I didn't "brand" them that way. Anet did.

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My necro and mesmers are is still performing very well in HM as a damage character, whether you brand them one way or not.

Since when did PvE require much anyway? Oh that's right, never.

In terms of damage, physicals will always be more powerful as damage dealers. Read the reasons I mentioned earlier.

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Target switching is just a mitigation for a weakness, physical characters have against blocking. Not an advantage, especially when we are comparing what the BEST HM profession is. Hopefully that monster doesn't self heal or regen after you have switched target.

No, it's not being bad. I guess your casters aren't the BEST HM professions either now because things such as Migraine and other anti-caster skills exist? No.

I have common sense. Sorry that you can't press Tab + Space, I guess not all of us can be athletes. Osnap.

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It has no bearing at all, on their performance in HM, damage or otherwise.

Well I guess that makes your own argument void then? A class designed for damage will obviously output more than a class designed for other reasons.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I didn't "brand" them that way. Anet did.

Lol! Nice try to make your biased branding "official". I dont recall ANet mentioning that necros and mesmers can never be among "the best class for HM."

Unfortunately, like you, most people only know how to use them as support classes because they also have great support skills which are also important as a criteria for being "the best class for HM".

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Since when did PvE require much anyway? Oh that's right, never.

In terms of damage, physicals will always be more powerful as damage dealers. Read the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Damage is not just looking at mere numbers. It is also looking at the amount of shutdowns and situations. Melee has to chase fleeing enemies and can be body blocked, range does not.

Besides, being the best HM profession doesn't mean damage numbers ONLY, but damage and defense and utility.

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I have common sense. Sorry that you can't press Tab + Space, I guess not all of us can be athletes. Osnap.

You seem to emphasize Tab+Space alot, but you have been failing to prove why target switching necessarily makes physical classes superior to casters? Otherwise please stay in topic.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 27, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Discord is 115 armor ignoring damage every 3s (including casting+recharge). Other than the required condition and hex, you dont really need other damage skills.

Critical Scythe is around 140 multi-target damage every 1s. Also, lol115damage? Superior runes fail, especially in Hard Mode.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

There is about a half second pause before your adrenaline recharges.

lolwhut

With FGJ up, you can spam Dslash non-stop. I like how you've never actually tried it yourself.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Lol! Nice try to make your biased branding "official". I dont recall ANet mentioning that necros and mesmers can never be among "the best class for HM."

I never said niether of them can be. Oh, and Paragon is by far the most powerful PvE class. Oh and sorry but the construction of the classes and their skills tell me why.

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Unfortunately, most people only know how to use them as support classes because they also have great support skills which are also important as a criteria for being "the best class for HM".

For support to be effective, they need something to support.

A Warrior doesn't need a Necro with Barbs to be effective, but the Necro with Barbs needs the Warrior.

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Damage is not just looking at mere numbers. It is also looking at the amount of shutdowns and situations. Melee has to chase fleeing enemies, range does not.

When I'm knocklocking them with Brawling Headbutt / Earth Shaker? When I'm playing a Paragon?

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You seem emphasis Tab+Space alot, but you have yet to prove why target switching necessarily makes physical classes superior to casters?

Because I'm not retarded and don't expect every one of my attacks go through. The same goes for hex spamming and some builds. If you've got Spirit Bond on an enemy, you wouldn't spam Discord on them because that would be plain retarded. Same goes for several other scenarios such as hex spamming. You wouldn't put Faintheartedness on a target which already has it. You would use Tab to get to another one of their physical attackers to apply it to that target.

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Besides, being the best HM profession doesn't mean damage ONLY, but damage and defense and utility.

[dragon slash][brawling headbutt]["for great justice!"]["save yourselves!"][flail][enduring harmony][enraging charge][steelfang slash]

Pretty sure that has damage, utility and defense.

[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][flail][enraging charge][enduring harmony]["for great justice!"][crushing blow]

Oh, that has it too!

You can just about fit Brawling Headbutt and Save Yourselves on any Paragon, Assassin or Dervish bar too.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

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Originally Posted by Tyla

A Warrior doesn't need a Necro with Barbs to be effective, but the Necro with Barbs needs the Warrior.

No the necro doesn't need a warrior to be effective. Fiends+MoP+Barbs is more effective than having a warrior around that can be body blocked from reaching the intended MoP target in the center of a pack. Thus, my statement comparing melee against range.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

No the necro doesn't need a warrior to be effective. Fiends+MoP+Barbs is more effective than having a warrior around that can be body blocked from reaching the intended MoP target in the center of a pack. Thus, my statement comparing melee against range.

I guess I'll reuse your own argument againt you.

What if the fiends don't all go on the intent target?

What if you decide to go spear Warrior? What if you walk around the bodyblocking enemy because enemies in PvE tend to not bodyblock consistently?

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I guess I'll reuse your own argument againt you.

What if the fiends don't all go on the intent target?

What if you decide to go spear Warrior? What if you walk around the bodyblocking enemy because enemies in PvE tend to not bodyblock consistently?

If you have played a MM before, fiends can be controlled to target better than melee minions.

Spear Warrior? Lol, my necro also wields a spear to help trigger barbs and MoP so I dont need a spear warrior, thank you.

Feel free to disagree, but I still vote for necros:

1) Ability for damage from spells like Discord, Necrosis, or minion bombing or Barbs/MoP+minions
2) Ability to mitigate damage like Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear/Faintheartedness, and minion meat shields
3) Support abilities e.g. Orders.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you have played a MM before, fiends can be controlled to target better than melee minions.

You sure you're not talking about when there's one left?

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Spear Warrior? Lol, my necro also wields a spear to help trigger barbs and MoP so I dont need a spear warrior, thank you.

More damage, IAS, SY...